Interviewing a suspect is not as straightforward as the entertainment industry makes you believe. Former Detective Sergeant Jason Grey explains the reality. ConsultingCops (CC) - Hi Jason, can you please tell us what force you worked for, what rank you retired at and what role you performed? Jason Grey (JG) - I retired as a Detective Sergeant in the Metropolitan Police. My last post was on the Homicide and Serious Crime Command where I worked for 10 years on a MIT predominantly investigating Murders. My main role was a case officer – responsible for collating and presenting all strands of the evidence gathered in an investigation to the CPS and taking the case to Court. CC - During your time with the Homicide unit I understand you were a Tier 5 interview advisor. Can you explain about the Tier system and what an advisor would do please? JG - The 5 Tier system is as follows: Tier 1 is the most basic interview training to prepare mainly new officers with skills to conduct interviews for low level offences. Tier 2 training is given to more experienced officers again for low level and volume crimes such as Theft and Assault. Tier 3 is training to equip officers to deal with for more serious and complex crime and includes interviewing witnesses. Tier 4 provides further in-depth training and includes monitoring and quality supervision. Tier 5 - This is the interview advisor role. The aim is to provide a bespoke interview strategy for the SIO in order to gain the best possible chance of obtaining evidence by questioning. The advisor would plan and prepare for the interviews including choosing the most suitable interview team. This ensures that all facets of the investigation are covered in the interview, whilst ensuring that PACE and the codes of practice are complied with. It is not normal for the advisor to be involved in the interview, instead a Tier 3 interviewer lead the questioning. As you may understand the more suspects involved the more complicated the role of the interviewer can become. I particularly remember a gang related murder where 21 arrests were made by the Team and the suspects were of ages ranging from 14-23 years old requiring detention at a number of different Police Stations. CC - Most people believe that officers arrest someone and go straight into interviewing the suspect, but it is not quite that straightforward is it? Can you explain what preparation suspect interviewers would undertake before the interview begins? JG - The preparation before interview is the most important part. There are many aspects of evidence the interviewers must familiarise themselves with – witness statements, CCTV, Exhibits, forensic matters etc. but there are also many other factors to consider which are out of Police control and can cause frustration. For example, has the suspect had sufficient time for legal consultation (which can sometimes take many hours)? Does the suspect require an appropriate adult or an interpreter? Is he/she under the influence of alcohol or drugs and therefore unfit for interview. Are there other suspects under arrest and if so which order should they be interviewed in? Most importantly, the whole process must be in accordance with PACE custody time limits. Remember the custody clock is ticking from the time detention is authorised and therefore further time extensions necessary to diligently progress the investigation must be considered and factored into the process. Every interview and set of circumstances are different and will bring its own unique challenge. CC - Another misconception is that police interviews are fairly quick and concise. The police ask a question and the suspect either admits, denies or states ‘no comment’. That is not quite the truth though is it? Interviews can take days to complete and this is one of the reasons an SIO would not be involved. Can you explain why the process can take so long please? JG - I have alluded to some of the issues faced by interviewers and the interview process above. The welfare and treatment of the suspect whilst in detention is of paramount importance and many interviews are delayed for rest periods, hospital visits and legal consultation. There could also be an unexpected breakthrough in the investigation, for example a piece of CCTV footage or a lab result on a forensic submission which was previously unknown. In these circumstances further disclosure and legal consultation would be in order before introduction into the interview process. CC - How do you get chosen to be an interview advisor and what training did you have to complete? JG - I always enjoyed interviewing suspects. I found it interesting to sit across the table from individuals many of whom had committed violent and shocking acts. It sometimes came as a surprise to see the vulnerability in some of them when the magnitude of the crime that they had committed became reality. Others were just plain bad people, cold and remorseless who deserve no place in civilised society. I applied for the requisite course which led to 3 weeks at Hendon Police Training College. At the conclusion of the course, I took part in a final case scenario where an interview was planned and conducted with actors playing the role of suspects. CC - With regards to interviewing suspects I gave an input at a True Crime festival and people were surprised to learn that the police cannot lie to the suspect or try to trick them into confessing. Does it surprise you to think people think that is the case? JG – No, that doesn’t surprise me but wouldn’t it be brilliant if we could?! In all seriousness, knowingly misleading a suspect would potentially result in the whole interview becoming inadmissible and could cast doubt on the integrity of every aspect of the investigation. CC - It is everyone’s right to remain silent in interview and challenge the Prosecution to prove your guilt. It is not for any defendant to prove their innocence. Why, in your opinion, would someone remain silent if they were innocent and not simply tell the police they did not do it? JG - The ultimate aim of any Suspect interview is to encourage the suspect to give an account. However, in my experience it is rare that a suspect provides this. The majority provide a prepared statement through their solicitor and answer no comment to all questions. A no comment interview can be just as damning at Court as long as the interviewer has asked all of the relevant questions. If a suspect had not committed the crime and remained silent there could be a number of reasons. The most common reason in my experience is that their account would incriminate someone close to them such as a friend or relative. CC - Do you miss being a police officer and if yes, what part of it do you miss the most? JG - Honestly, no! I am proud of my service and I always gave my best to serve the people of London. I made many good friends and together we were responsible for ensuring dangerous and violent offenders were convicted and imprisoned to make London a safer place. I served my time and am content now in retirement.

Safeguarding is such a vital part of the modern world. This interview with former Detective Superintendent Chris Robson explains how he helps keep the vulnerable members of society safe. ConsultingCops (CC) - Hi Chris, can you please tell us what force you worked for, what rank you retired at and what role you performed? Chris Robson (CR) - I worked in the Met, finished as a Detective Superintendent on the SCRG (Serious Crime Review Group). CC - I understand that since you have retired from the police you work for a company involved in safeguarding. Can you please explain what you do and why you decided to work in this field? CR - Much of my early career was in safeguarding roles, then in my final post the team I oversaw was responsible for all statutory reviews the Met were involved in. Since retiring I have worked as an Independent Chair and Author across several safeguarding partnerships. I currently am the Independent Chair and Scrutineer for 4 Partnerships, I have an independent role with the RFU and complete Safeguarding Reviews. When I retired these roles were a natural fit. Safeguarding Partnerships are a statutory requirement for Local Authority areas. I genuinely believe passionately in the work we do and being Independent allows me to make a real impact. CC - Safeguarding is an often-used phrase these days but I am unsure if everyone understands its true meaning. Can you explain it please? CR - The first thing to say is that safeguarding really is everyone’s business. I know that sounds like a ‘strap line’ but if we all just looked out for our children and adults at risk a little better the impact would be significant. It’s about affording professionals the best opportunity to intervene, assist and act to ensure the best possible outcomes. As police officers, staff, and community members sometimes we must ask uncomfortable questions. Most people involved in policing are good at this, we are taught to challenge and assess responses. I would say that safeguarding is about recognizing when someone may be at risk. There are some obvious things to look out for, signs of assault, hunger, cleanliness, changes in behavior. Safeguarding takes on many guises, if in doubt ‘ask’. An old DI that I worked for once told me ‘Chris you will be far more devastated if a child suffers because you didn’t ask a question than you will if a parent dislikes you because you did’. I know that he was right. CC - As a private company how do you get approached for work? What types of organisations ask you to assist them with regards to safeguarding? CR - I work with 3 main Statutory agencies, the police, local authority, and health. There are several other key partners involved including education, the voluntary sector and others. My role is to scrutinize the work they do, advise them and assure them that as a partnership they are doing all they can to safeguard children. In terms of review work I am commissioned to conduct reviews into circumstances where people have died or been seriously injured whilst they were involved with one or more agencies in the partnership. These reviews are completed to provide learning and improve future practice, particularly in the multi-agency arena. CC - What type of advice do you give to organisations? CR - Advice ranges from reviewing specific cases to the formation of overarching strategies and priorities. Much of my work is about being a trusted, critical friend who ensures the partners are working well together to safeguard children. Building relationships with agencies who have competing priorities is key. CC - Is there a website for our readers to visit with regards to your company or contact details? CR – Each Children’s safeguarding Partnership has its own website. If people would like to contact me for advice on the roles I’m currently performing then I am on LinkedIn. CC - Is any of your work subject to Data Protection rules and if you need to get personal information how do you obtain that if you no longer have your police powers? CR - I am provided with it by the agencies who commission or employ me. CC - Do you miss being a police officer and if yes, what part of it do you miss the most? CR - I miss the great people, I miss the buzz of helping people and dealing with those who commit crime. I miss the free travel! CC - Any other comments you would like to make? CR - There is a life after the job. Policing is a vocation, I loved it, the best job in the world but there are fresh challenges and with your experience and skills you will be very much sought after.

Close Protection is a truly unique specialism within the police. In this interview former Detective Constable Karen Greene explains how she came to join this unit and what the role demands. ConsultingCops (CC) - Hi Karen, can you please tell us what force you worked for, what rank you retired at and what role you performed? Karen Greene (KG) - Metropolitan Police Service. (MPS) I retired as a Detective Constable. I ended my career of 30 years’ service on the Counter Terrorism Command. I have worked in many specialist units since becoming a Detective including, Witness Protection, Fraud, Anti-Terrorist Unit (including Advanced Exhibits Officer within the Command) and Close Protection. CC - We are very interested in you being a Close Protection Officer whilst serving with the police. Can you tell us how you became involved with Close Protection? KG - I didn’t know a lot about the role at 1st as you can imagine with a force the size of the MPS there are so many specialist roles and units. Although the unit is a uniformed posting (in plain clothes) I was still very much interested even though I had been a Detective for more than 10 years. What I did know about the unit was that there was a shortage of both females and black officers and a shortage of both applying to join. Once I found out more about the role I realised that it would be an interesting role to perform and completely different to anything I had ever done in my police service. I found out how much training would be involved and how challenging and demanding this would be and I’ve always been someone who wants to take on a challenge and not shy of hard work. I was not concerned about the physical training; however, I had never carried or used a firearm before nor had I considered using one. I passed all the courses which included intensive firearms training and a physical and mentally draining Close Protection course, some would say one of the hardest courses to pass in the MPS. There is a high level of failures so I was obviously very proud of myself when I passed......in fact I said that if I had failed it I would not have put myself through it again!!!! Saying that the truth is I probably would have as by then I was even more intent on joining the unit. CC - What training did you have to complete before being operational as a Close Protective Officer? KG - A number of firearms courses. Close Protection Course, First Aid and Trauma Care, Anti Surveillance, Counter Surveillance. Firearms re classification tests, Close Protection re classifications, First Aid refreshers. CC - Are there different roles that officers complete when they are deployed in a Close Protection capacity? KG - People hear Close Protection Officer and think ‘oh you’re a Bodyguard’ and they think of a burly man, with huge muscles getting in the way of anyone who approaches their Principal, generally being a celebrity. A Close Protection Officer is so much more than that, they are highly skilled, discreet but able to react quickly to any situation. A Close Protection Officer uses soft skills, which are so much more important. They have to be meticulous in their advance planning, carrying out comprehensive Reconnaissance (RECCES). Conducting investigations, gathering intelligence on people, groups, buildings and companies and how they will impact on their Principal. Completing briefings and presenting them to the team. Being responsible for personnel resources, the logistics for vehicles and travel, including international and national travel. They have to carry out continuous risk assessments. The list goes on. You need to be able to know how to talk to people knowing when to change the language in any given situation. Being able to diffuse a situation sometimes without being physical, being diplomatic. If I’m being honest in my capacity as a Close Protection Officer and beyond keeping my Principal safe I was a PA, Officer Manager, Diary Secretary, Travel Agent, Resources Manager, Intelligence Officer and Risk Assessor. Generally, those people who need protecting don’t want it. It’s the officer’s job to gain their trust. Your Principal should trust you enough to know that when you ask them to do something it is always because you are trying to keep them safe. CC - Can you tell us about your most high-profile deployment? KG – Sorry that is not a question I can answer due to integrity. CC - A few years ago, the TV Show “Bodyguard” was very popular did you watch it? If you did how close to reality was it or were there any obvious mistakes? KG – I've never watched the show; however, I know that police experts are used to give advice when making these types of programmes. They are highly dramatized for public viewing. CC - Are female Close Protection Officers commonplace? Have you had any comments from either fellow officer’s, people you were protecting or members of the public about being a female Close Protection Officer? KG - They aren’t common within the Police or Private Sector. I’ve had mixed opinions both positive and negative. The negative generally are through ignorance. I think having females on the team gives a positive image and shows inclusivity. I think women adopt a completely different approach to the role and can be so much more discreet. In my experience no one ever thought I was the Close Protection Officer which made it so easy to be there but not seen. CC - Would you recommend the role of Close Protection Officer to other officers? KG - Yes, I would recommend it. It’s a role like no other in the Police Service. CC - Before we finish being a Close Protection Officer there is always the chance of danger to yourself. How did you family view you carrying out this role? KG - As a Police Officer there is always a danger to yourself, no matter the role. The role of a Close Protection Officer is no different. My family had concerns about my safety throughout my career due to the roles I decided to undertake. I did shelter them from a lot of things I dealt with. My family were proud of all of my achievements within the MPS. CC - Is there anything else you would like to add? KG - As a black female police officer I hope that having taken roles that were maybe not the norm, I have encouraged not only other females and black officers to consider joining these departments within the police but also that I’ve encouraged members of the public especially in my community to think about joining the police as a career.

What other organisations use Detectives to solve crime. You may be surprised to know there are many. This interview with former Detective Chief Inspector & SIO Phil Rickells will tell you about two of them that he has worked for since his retirement. ConsultingCops (CC) - Hi Phil, can you please tell us what force you worked for, what rank you retired at and what role you performed? Phil Rickells (PR) - I had two police careers. I joined the West Midlands Police in 1985 where I worked at Solihull, Aston and Coventry. I worked initially in uniform before progressing to roles with the CID. In 2000 I met my wife skiing in Italy (I saved her off the slopes!), which resulted in me moving to Essex in 2002, where I joined the Metropolitan Police Service as a Detective Sergeant on the Homicide command. I then spent ten years on the Homicide Command before retiring as a DCI in 2015. CC - So, when you left the police I understand you remained in a Detective role with DEFRA. Can you tell the readers what DEFRA stands for and what your job with them entailed please? PR - DEFRA stands for the Department for Environment Food and Rural Affairs. DEFRA holds several strands of work relating to the environment, food and farming which is often far reaching. Recently this has expanded to into areas such as Peat burning (Heather and Grass Burning Regulations 2021) and the Ivory Act 2018. I worked for DEFRA Investigation Services (DIS) which undertook investigations predominantly on behalf of the following arm’s length bodies: • Forestry Commission (Forestry Act 1967), illegal tree felling. • Veterinary Medicines Directorate (Veterinary Medicines Regulations 2013) • Animal Plant Health Agency • Rural Payments Agency (Fraud Act 2006) CC - Why did you decide to stay in a Detective role on leaving the police? PR - On my retirement I purposely left the police and the investigation environment, pursuing other interests. In 2017 I missed the investigation role, the interaction with witnesses and suspects. However, I did not wish to undertake a strategic management role. Whenever I spoke with former colleagues who had followed a successful career within the police, they all recalled the ranks of Detective Constable and Sergeant as being their favourite. This was a factor which was instrumental in me deciding to return to a ‘real detective’ role. CC - What type of investigations did you conduct whilst working for DEFRA? PR - I conducted both regulatory and criminal investigations on behalf of DEFRA. The structure of the investigations was very similar to those in the police. Reviewing intelligence and information. Establishing an investigative strategy. Collecting witness statements, exhibits and evidence. Before identifying suspects and inviting them to an Interview Under Caution. I was authorized by the Secretary of State under a long list of regulations as an ‘Authorized Officer/Inspector’. At times these gave far reaching powers to enter and search business premises without a warrant. These extended to search private premises with a magistrate’s search warrant. At times this could be challenging when contacting a magistrate court for a warrant with legislation that they had never heard of before. An area that I came across was dog breeding and artificial insemination, where illegal veterinary medication was being used to facilitate this industry. I use the word ‘industry’ as on my first visit to one of these establishments, whilst gaining a rapport with the owner I discovered a dog had been sold for £100,000 (yes, I saw the receipt). During the COVID lockdown this industry flourished financially due to demand. This was the first of many investigations into this world where I saw many people diversify into this line of work due to the financial rewards, which also attracted organised crime groups (OCG’s). I also conducted investigations on behalf of the Forestry Commission involving the illegal felling of trees. One investigation involved the illegal felling of 12 large oak trees resulting in the offender being successful prosecuted and fined £12,000 CC - I understand you have moved from DEFRA and now work for the NIS. Can you tell us about this organisation? PR - The National Investigation Service (NATIS) is a law enforcement organisation with the responsibility for investigating cross-border, large, complex, serious organised crime relating to the public sector. NATIS was created with the sponsorship of government to bring policing and government agencies together to investigate serious crime where public authorities were the victims. In 2020 NATIS was tasked to lead on organised criminal gangs targeting HM government financial support schemes provided in response to the COVID 19 pandemic. CC - What investigations have you been involved with since joining the NIS? PR – Measures were introduced during 2020 to support businesses affected by COVID-19 such as loans, grants, and tax allowances. The Bounce Back loan (BBL) scheme helped small and medium-sized businesses to borrow between £2,000 and £50,000, at a low interest rate, guaranteed by the Government. The Bounce Back loans were made on the condition that they were not to be used for personal purposes, but could be used, for example, to purchase a company asset such as a vehicle, if it would provide an economic benefit to the business. It appears that offences of Fraud and money laundering have been committed. NATIS is presently involved in the investigation of Bounce Back Loans (BBL) at a variety of levels, depending on the financial benefit. CC - Do you miss being a police officer and if yes, what part of it do you miss the most? PR - I do miss the police service. Not the politics, but the personalities, and those officers at the grass roots who exhibited exceptional skills and abilities. I recall a homicide investigation where the Metropolitan Police Service had failed the victim of a previous assault, who was now the murder victim. Two experienced family liaison officers were dispatched to meet a very angry family, who were totally disillusioned with the MPS. In the following months the engagement with the family included honesty and integrity, establishing a rapport of confidence in our investigation, with a rational for our actions. The offender was arrested some days later. Following the trial, he was sentenced to Life Imprisonment (25 years). Years later I met the partner of the victim who was highly complementary of the investigation and particularly those two officers. CC - Have you any advice for officers contemplating leaving the job or for those approaching retirement about what to do when they leave? PR - For those young in service get a specialism, which is transferrable outside the police service. I don’t think the police service is now a 30-year career, which is now reflected in the pension. The areas where I have seen growth is Financial Investigation or Digital Forensics. Both my recent employers have invested heavily in these two skills areas, which are continually developing. For those in the twilight years of their police careers or contemplating leaving the service, you have a myriad of skills and abilities, you are experienced problem solvers! In the last five years I have been alarmed how criminals are now diversifying from the conventional criminality into alternative crimes and regulatory breaches, due to the lucrative financial benefits. In 2022 the Public Sector Fraud Authority was launched to address the estimated £40 billion loss to the public purse. I have no doubt several policies and strategies have been drafted to address the risk and reduction. However, they still require the expertise and knowledge, gained through policing, placing suspects in interview rooms. Some may say I do not have the skills. They may have an abstract specialism, but these can be adapted to a new career. I know of one ex counter terrorism Detective Inspector who now specializes in intellectual property (copyright law).

Fraud can have a devastating effect on a victim and is som ething we are all susceptible to via emails and phone calls. In this i n terview former DI Kim Booth tells about catching the fraudsters. ConsultingCops (CC) - Hi Kim, can you please tell us what force you worked for, what rank you retired at and what role you performed? Kim Booth (KB) - I joined the Lincolnshire Police and remained in the service with Lincolnshire until my retirement. I did a secondment during my service with the Regional Crime Squad (now National Crime Agency) as a surveillance operative involving both mobile and rural surveillance (C.R.O.P.) but otherwise remained in various investigative roles until my retirement as Detective Inspector Head of the Lincolnshire Police Economic Crime Unit. Other roles included general CID, Drug Squad and Head of Special Branch CC - We are obviously interested in your specialism of investigating fraud. Whilst all crime has an impact on its victim can we start with you explaining what would be considered a serious fraud please? Would it be the number of victims, the scale of the fraud or the monetary amount involved? KB - There are several issues to consider when deciding if a fraud can be classed as ‘serious’ these can include the value of the funds lost. The type of fraud it is, considering the impact the offence has on both the victim, as well as any public interest in the case such as in the current PPE allegations of fraud during the recent Covid pandemic. Some smaller cases of fraud can be considered ‘serious’ especially in the event that the victim despite not having lost a large amount of funds but those funds appropriated by the fraudster might comprise of the victim’s total savings. I consider all fraud offences are serious the difference being is that some are a lot larger than others. What does make the fraud more serious is the ‘end user’ of the ill-gotten gains, are the proceeds funding organized crime? or in recent cases funding terrorism around the world? CC - Can you tell us about the largest fraud you have investigated? KB - The largest fraud I have been involved in investigating was an alleged ‘PONZI’ fraud which can be considered to be the ‘Holy Grail’ for fraud investigators. It is not a particularly common offence but the effect on the victims can be devastating, due to the vast amount of monies lost by the victims, think Bernie Madoff. The offence was investigated as a joint investigation between the Serious Fraud Office (SFO) and the Lincolnshire Police involved 3300 victims who lost approx. $375 million USD and were from 65 different countries. The largest investor a Japanese businessman invested $28.9 million USD in the fraudulent scheme and the smallest investor a Chinese who lady invested her savings of $20,000 USD. During the investigation I attended and conducted enquiries with local law enforcement in USA (FBI), Canada (RCMP), New Zealand (SFO New Zealand office), Japan (Tokyo Major Crime Dept) and the Bahamas (Royal Bahamas Police Financial Crime Unit). CC - Could you explain how it is decided who will investigate a fraud that is cross police borders/national/international? KB - A lot of reported frauds cross police borders nationally and some are international. Firstly, in evaluating a fraud one has to assess where the offence has taken place, i.e. where the ‘hearts and minds of the offenders are’. When this is established then the force where the offenders are based will be the police force that will deal with the offence, this will also be the case if the offence under investigation involves victims from abroad. If the case is exceptionally large then the force dealing with it can, due to certain criteria refer the case to the Serious Fraud Office (London) who could accept the referral and deal with it. It will take some time to establish who the victims are as this day and age the victims will report their concerns to Action Fraud who will collate the victims and their details and pass the details to the force with the most reported victims but this will not necessarily mean that that force will investigate the offence if the fraudsters are located elsewhere. CC - How have fraudsters changed their criminal methods as technology has developed? KB - Fraud has changed immensely over the last few years due to the internet and advancing technology. For example, ‘romance’ fraudsters can communicate with a potential victim from the other side of the world. Whilst it is more difficult to identify the fraudster it is not impossible but just requires a fair bit if time and liaison with other law enforcement agencies in foreign jurisdictions. With the internet there will always remain a digital footprint. Other types of modern technology can be beneficial such as Facebook, Twitter and the like as it never fails to surprise me just how much information people disclose about themselves to the world. As the investigations become more complex police staff and civilian investigators become more proficient. Criminals are always looking to commit the perfect crime but very rarely stray too far from a ‘Modus Operandi’ (M.O.) that has been used successfully by them in the past. CC - How do the police catch fraudsters especially if they operate from outside the UK? KB – During an investigation fraudsters can be traced by various means to foreign jurisdictions. Liaison takes place between the investigators and the foreign country and statements can be recorded, visits made from the UK after the necessary paperwork has been submitted and the offenders may be arrested and brought to the UK if extradition arrangements exist. CC - I understand you have written a book about a fraud case you were involved with can you tell us about this please? What is it called and where can it be purchased? KB - A number of years ago I dealt with a fraud that basically none of my colleagues believed was true. It intrigued me and I decided to investigate. The case involved a woman fraudster, who as it turned out had a previous conviction for fraud, purporting to be the Illegitimate daughter of Margaret Duchess of Argyll. The elderly victims of the fraud met her whilst on holiday in Scotland and she persuaded them to part with monies in excess of 400k over seven years. It totally ruined the elderly couple financially, a position from which they never recovered. It was a rare case of ‘Fraud by Proxy’ where the fraudster involved other persons to assist her in her fraudulent activities without them knowing what they were getting involved in. There was a bogus Doctor, bogus security guard and a bogus solicitor and a ‘Fake’ Rembrandt painting. The victims totally believed her story and the fraud lasted 7 years. It took three months to persuade the victims to lodge a complaint to police. At the end of the case the victims asked me to write a book about their story after they had both died to put their version of events out there. Despite not being an author, I wrote their story. The book is called ‘A Cruel Deception’ by Kim Booth and can be found on Amazon Books. It’s not a literary masterpiece but it does tell an accurate and unbelievable story. CC - When you left the police, I understand you continued to investigate fraud for a private company. Can you tell us about this part of your life? KB - After leaving the police I worked for five years as a Corporate Security Manager with a large international travel company. I dealt with offences of fraud within the travel industry together with offences of money laundering and sometimes armed robberies. The frauds mainly involved booking holidays with either cloned or stolen credit cards or the cloning of identities of genuine customers. CC - How do most people become victims of fraud and is there anything you can advise about avoiding being a victim? KB - There are numerous pieces of advice I could give but I would consider some of the more important ones to be; Buy a shredder. Don’t put any confidential paperwork in the bin. A lot of information can be gleaned from what people throw away. Never open attachments on E’ mails unless you know where they are from. Do not ever give any personal details over the telephone especially from persons purporting to be from a bank. When out and about in restaurants and shops including petrol stations do not let your credit /debit card out of your sight it only takes a second for somebody to swipe your card on a card reader and make a ‘clone’ of it at a later date. If possible pay attention when using a cashpoint machine to Check it has not been fitted with a ‘Lebanese loop’ or even a false fascia that could contain a false keypad and a concealed camera and cover the keyboard with your hand so your PIN number cannot be seen. Be cautious using any cash point late at night and in a less populated area. Always treat any caller stating ‘We are from a credit card company and suspicious activity has been seen on your account’ Even callers at the door purporting to be plain clothed police officers or ‘The CID’ ask for Identification and if necessary ask them to wait outside while you call their police station to ‘check them out’ they won’t mind if they are genuine. CC - Is there anything else you would like to add? KB - It is my opinion that fraud is highly under estimated together with the effect it has on the victim. I have known occasions where the victim has lost their total wealth to a fraudster and have committed suicide knowing that due to the advancing years of the victim and their inability to continue to work their finances will never recover. The investigation of fraud has been underfunded for years. There is no romantic side to a fraudster they are just thieves some may be more intelligent and plausible than others but the bottom line is they are criminals plain and simple.

Police officers have so much experience of dealing with situations that are unique to the rest of the general public it makes sense that some of them use this to make stories. Continuing with our series of what officers do after leaving the service is this interview with ex-DS Lisa Cutts. ConsultingCops (CC) - Hi Lisa, can you please tell us what force you worked for, what rank you retired at and what role you performed? Lisa Cutts (LC) - Hi Lyndon, I worked for Kent Police for twenty-five years and retired as a detective sergeant. I worked mainly within CID after completing my two-year probation period back in 1998. Most of my service was spent within the Serious Crime Directorate, investigating murders, rapes and kidnaps. It was exhausting, but also very rewarding. CC - I understand you have been a crime author for a while even whilst you were still serving as a police officer. Can you tell us how you came about being an author? LC - It was a series of strange events. In 2011 my husband had a heart attack. We were at home and I was about to get ready for work when he collapsed and stopped breathing. Fortunately, one of the things Kent Police had taught me was CPR – and the air ambulance was on duty and able to land nearby; I can’t take all of the credit. Four and a half minutes is a long time when someone isn’t breathing, but the ending was a happy one. After four days in intensive care, he made a remarkable recovery and a few months later, we went on holiday. I took my Kindle and a stack of books and one of the books I read literally changed my life. It was the amazing Into the Darkest Corner by Elizabeth Haynes. What I hadn’t realized when I tore through the book was that Elizabeth worked for Kent Police as an analyst and worked in the same building as me. With security being as it is, I couldn’t get into her part of the building and she couldn’t get into mine. We had never met, but I emailed her to tell her how much I loved her book and she replied and asked if I had time for a coffee. I must admit, I was star-struck. We met, chatted and she encouraged me to write. I went home that day and wondered what I would write about. Then I remembered that I knew quite a lot about murder. Nine books later, Elizabeth and I are still very good friends. I owe her a lot. CC - Did you have to make an application to your force to write about crime whilst still a serving officer? If yes, what form did that take and what was your force’s reaction? LC - Yes, I had to submit a secondary employment application form outlining what I wanted to do. I also suggested that I write under the name Lisa Cutts, didn’t base the books on any investigation I’ve worked on, didn’t base the books on either members of the public or colleagues and didn’t mention that the books were based in Kent. To be fair, I describe the location as somewhere between London and the coast with France visible across the channel on a clear day. Even the most amateur detective could work it out. CC - How many books have you written and are they all the same genre? LC - I’ve written nine books, six of them police procedurals and three are cozy crime. I found the cozies a real comfort to write as they are a change of direction and contain nothing too graphic. Having said that, I’m starting on book ten and this is more of a return to the darker side of crime writing. CC - Are any of your books written on your personal experience as a police officer? LC - Certainly the first six. Never Forget was my debut and I wrote it from the perspective of a female forty-something-year-old detective constable who liked a glass of wine or two and investigated murders for a living. It was cathartic, although, as I’ve said, I never based the books on actual investigations, only the methods of how murders are solved. CC - I understand when you left the police you initially remained as a police staff member. Can you tell us about this period of time and what role you fulfilled? LC – When I retired, I was working on an historic investigation and took a few months off to write, intending to return for several years as police staff. Even though I was only working for three days each week, I wanted to fully commit to writing and knew that I couldn’t continue doing both. After fourteen months, I handed my notice in and now write full-time. CC - What made you stop being a police staff member and becoming a full-time author? LC - As well as continuing to write crime fiction, I was also approached about a non-fiction book. It’s nothing to do with policing, although it is a subject very close to my heart. It’s still under wraps at the moment as we’re ironing out the details. It wasn’t a very difficult decision to make – office-based document processing or doing something I love. CC - What is your daily routine now? LC - Now I’m away from a desk or laptop all day, I use the morning to get as much of my personal stuff done, walk the dog and spend the afternoon and early evening writing or researching. I make a lot of phone calls and visit my local library fairly often. I still work weekends as old habits die hard. I’ve got used to not really having a day off. CC - Do you miss being a police officer and if yes, what part of it do you miss the most? LC - No. I sleep very well, relax with alarming ease and get up every day with a plan of what I’m going to do. I made some fantastic friends along the way and still see them whenever possible, so I’ve taken the best with me. CC - How did you become a professional author? How did you obtain an agent and how did you get published? LC - I entered a competition with an extract of what became my first book. I won first prize, much to my amazement, was offered a two-book publishing deal and one of the judges who was an agent, offered to represent me. CC - Is there any advice you can offer for our readers who want to be published authors? LC - Contact agents, publishers, keep writing and keep reading. A lot of the brilliant things that happened to me were because I was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time. I almost didn’t enter the competition, in fact, I almost didn’t write the entry in the first place. I took a chance that anything positive would come out of it and I can’t believe where the last nine books and eleven years have gone. CC - Any other comments you would like to make? LC - Author library talks are often free and can give writers an insight into the world of an author. They’re usually good fun and even if readers borrow the book from the library rather than buying it, the author still gets a Public Lending Right payment which is often more lucrative than royalties from a book shop purchase. Please support your local library. I love going to mine and seeing a number of people browsing and borrowing books.

One of the most important roles in dealing with homicide cases, fatal road accidents and terrorist fatalities is that of the Family Liaison Officer. Clearly, this is a function that is not really understood by the general public as it has little mainstream attention. This interview with Miles will educate people about the value of this work. ConsultingCops (CC) - Hi Miles, can you please tell me what rank you finished your career at and what force you worked for? DS Miles Manning (MM) - Detective Sergeant (DS) – Metropolitan Police Service (MPS). CC - Can you explain what a FLO/FLC are and how they are used by the police? What are their ranks and how experienced must they be before taking on these roles? MM - A Family Liaison Officer (FLO) is the link between the family of either a Murder/Manslaughter victim (including Terror offences), those killed in Road Traffic Accidents and victims of mass casualty events either in the UK, such as the Grenfell Tower tragedy, or overseas like the Tsunami in 2004. The role has origins from the mistakes made during, and before the Stephen Lawrence investigation where the family were largely ignored. In 1998 following the review undertaken by Lord McPherson, the process of creating the role of Family Liaison Officer began and I was one of the first cadre of officers to be trained (around 2001) to deploy within families when I was serving on The Homicide Command. The FLO role is an immersive role within the family and is undertaken by a trained investigator who is a volunteer and usually with significant Policing experience. They must always be Detective Constables (DC), at the very least, with the exception of Road Traffic matters where Police Constables (PC) from that unit, similarly volunteers, are trained and utilised. A FLO must be mentally resilient and have copious amounts of compassion and empathy to undertake the role effectively. The FLO’s prime function was to support the family and the investigation by learning as much about the victim as possible, working on the principle that a significant amount of people is killed by the hands of someone they knew. The old Police adage “know how the victim lived, know why the victim died” was and remains apt and a skilled FLO with good communication skills can break down barriers within families and utilize their relationship to identify leads that are crucial to the investigation. In building that relationship, the FLO guides the family through the legal complexities that arise when someone is killed. They support them at the identification process and crucially assist them by being a single point of contact (SPOC) between them and the Senior Investigation Officer (SIO -usually a Detective Chief Inspector or Detective Superintendent). This clear line of communication ensures that the family are kept up to date and involved with the investigation. The FLO performs no other role on that enquiry and can engage with the SIO in a way that no other DC can. FLO’s attend most strategy and investigative meetings and have a deep knowledge of the case and its direction in order to keep the family fully informed. As the case progresses to arrest, the information flow is maintained and any queries from the immediate or wider family addressed. As the trial approaches the FLO will arrange a visit to the court beforehand to familiarise the family, and during the court hearing itself, will continue close support often by sitting with the family during the trial and making sure they have a safe space in the courthouse should they wish to leave the court itself. Often FLO’s are the ones reading out prepared statement to the media on behalf of the family and FLO’s are trained and authorized in media handling. Again, very few of Constable rank have that training and ability. The FLO will practically support the family in any way they can, from assisting with funeral arrangements, to talking with employers in order to reduce the suffering of the family, even by a small amount. They will not however counsel them. The FLO will signpost families to trauma support professionals but will not undertake mental health treatment within the family themselves. Whilst they may be experienced in dealing with grief, an amateur approach to helping the family cope emotionally, no matter how well intentioned, could be damaging to those concerned. This is where the Family Liaison Coordinator (FLC) comes in. Following the Tsunami, the FLO role evolved considerably from dealing with Murder/Manslaughter/Road Traffic victims to nationwide deployments of FLO’s following mass casualty events, primarily abroad, in support of the Interpol/United Nations Disaster Victim Identification (DVI) protocols following the deaths of 3 or more people, 1 of which must be a foreign national. The DVI deployments are a topic in itself that I cannot really cover here, but will do so if asked. However, in short, the FLC role emerged from The Tsunami operation where it was recognized that a supervisor was required to support and manage FLO’s deployed in very challenging circumstances. The FLC main role is to ensure the wishes of the SIO are being carried out and that the welfare of the FLO’s is monitored. They are there for guidance and support and carry out a whole range of activities to facilitate the FLO’s work within a family. They will make arrangements for logistical support for FLO’s, phones, cars, overtime, etc. The FLC will often sort out visits to scenes for the family or to the morgue or courts to allow the FLO to be able to concentrate on the family. The FLC hold regular meetings with the FLO’s and supervises the Family Liaison log, an in-depth report of the interaction with the family. The FLC is almost always an experienced FLO and should be able to recognise if the work is affecting the FLO and support them accordingly. There is a danger that FLO become too entwined with the family and FLC’s are there to stop that. A clear exit strategy must be in place from the beginning of the investigation/operation so that the family know that the FLO will, at some point in the future, no longer be involved with the family. It must be remembered that whilst a FLO is invaluable to a family, they remain a constant reminder of the worst time in their life and so there must be a time when the FLO is preventing the family from moving on. The FLC assists both the FLO and the family with that exit. Both FLO’s and FLC’s must have a flexible approach to each family, so it is impossible to list out exactly what each does in every investigation. The above gives you a flavour of what FLO’s undertake with families but is not comprehensive. For more information, please contact Consulting Cops. CC - Were you a FLO/FLC or both? When, for what unit and what location? MM - I was a FLO on the Homicide Command from 2001 until 2004 where I dealt with a lot of families. In 2004, having just moved from The Homicide Command to Witness Protection, and because my role was covert I was not allowed to deploy to families, so I was bought into the Co-ordination Cell for the FLO response to The Tsunami. This was the first time that a nationwide deployment of FLO’s had ever been attempted and I worked 16 hours a day for weeks in that cell, liaising with multiple forces, deploying families across the country, assisting the coordination of body identification in country and repatriation to the UK. Following the Tsunami, I became part of a small team of FLC’s that were called out when there was a mass casualty event abroad and I assisted with the identification and repatriation of UK nationals caught up in natural disasters in Italy, Japan, Korea and Nepal. In 2008 upon promotion and posting to Enfield Borough as a Detective Sergeant, I assisted DS Lyndon Smith (From Consulting Cops) as the divisional FLC, and eventually replaced him when he moved back to The Homicide Command. I managed, as a secondary duty, a small team of FLO’s working on non-suspicious sudden deaths and other matters that occurred within Enfield Borough. In 2011 I transferred to The Counter Terrorism Command where, again as a secondary duty, I was one of the Command FLC’s and ran FLO’s deployed to families of terror victims around the world. I was the FLC for the attack on the BP pipeline at In Amenas, Algeria where 6 UK nationals were killed and the attack on the Westgate Mall in Kenya where 4 UK Nationals were murdered. In 2015 I led the team of FLO’s deployed to Sousse, Tunisia where 30 UK nationals were killed and the following year I was in Brussels with FLO’s dealing with the UK nationals killed in the terror attacks on the Metro and Airport. I was also lead FLC in attacks in Paris and Nice. My last weeks of service prior to retirement were taken up as the FLC for the attack on Westminster Bridge and my last meaningful day of service was arranging the visit to the scene and the morgue for the families of those killed on that day. CC - What can you tell us about being a FLO/FLC? Can you give examples of what a deployment is like? MM - I think deployments as a FLO/FLC are the most challenging but also the most rewarding in Policing. I am of the opinion that FLO’s do not get the credit they deserve in the media and if you look at the reports undertaken into the response to the Manchester Arena and Grenfell, one area of praise for the Police was the FLO response. Personally speaking, my deployments abroad were the most challenging. Because of the size of my team and the number of families, I was single deploying my team which is something not normally done but with the morgue in Tunis, two hours up the road from Sousse, and the Tunisians insisting on physical ID I had a few families to manage and not enough FLO’s. Families were staying all over Sousse and the sheer logistical challenge was a nightmare. On top of that I was working closely with the Tunisian Police trying to find out what happened, liaising with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) to facilitate information back to families who did not travel to Sousse. I was dealing with politician’s requests which was a new experience for me, I was handling repeated media intrusion and I was managing some families who, because of the grief, were ripping each other apart. Being open and transparent with those families and getting clear information to them helped heal the rifts that had occurred in many cases, but it was very time consuming even though it was essential for that family. The decision to physically ID victims was traumatic for the families and chaotically organized by the local Ministry. We managed to upset a government minister with our suggestions for making it easier for the family and I was embroiled in a tussle between London and Tunis. However, I managed to keep relationships cordial and when the Tunisians asked the UK Police who were there to stay in the hotels whilst they tried to sort out their processes, I was the only one allowed free movement around the area, in and out of the scene and the local government offices. It was exhausting and because I was the senior rank in Sousse, despite being just a Detective Sergeant, I was multi-tasking and doing things I’d never done before, like engage with local and UK Cabinet Ministers. I was fortunate to be part of a team from the FCO deployed in Sousse itself and as a team we were very effective, but in Policing terms, I was on my own trying to make sure that my FLO’s were able to concentrate solely on the families. 20-hour days were the norm and the pressure was relentless. But I am so proud of what we did there. In other deployments within the UK as a FLO, you have to be constantly on your guard around your body language and the words you use. One of the many stages of grief is anger and it is this one that people can stay in the longest and can be the most damaging to them and to your relationship with them. FLO’s are very careful about the words they use. Only if operationally required will they be untruthful, they will rarely make decisions for a family, nor will they judge some of the strange requests they receive. I had a mother whose son died as a result of a one punch attack where he landed on a cobble street resulting in traumatic brain injury. Like most head injuries there was a lot of blood and after it had all been to court (the assailant got off) the mother asked for the clothes her son was wearing that night. Obviously, the top was covered in blood, but she wanted it as it was. I remember the rest of the office were uncomfortable with the request and wanted to dry clean the top, but I held out, bought a presentation box out of my own money, and put the clothes in the box. The mother told me at a memorial to her son a year or so later that she hadn’t opened the box just yet, but it was there in her view most days and that gave her some peace. I suppose the first death message I delivered as a FLO stick’s with me, when I had to tell a mother that her daughter had killed her 6 year old granddaughter and then herself. I can still remember, 23 years later, breaking the news to this poor woman in Twickenham at 2am, who was sitting on the sofa in front of a large photograph of her daughter and granddaughter on the wall. That was a tough night. CC - I understand FLO’s are deployed in pairs. Can you explain why that happens? MM - FLO’s are deployed in pairs for the integrity of what is being said. Generally, one will be the lead who does all the talking and the other will be the scribe who takes notes of what is being said as well as filling in and being another pair of eyes in the case. The lead is always the one who deals with the SIO, but the opinion of the deputy is always considered. The other reason is that is always gives the family a point of contact. So if the Lead FLO is away on leave, a course, or off for a personal matter then the Deputy can take over being the contact for the family during this time. CC - In relation to Sousse would you be willing to give us a full account for our followers to read in the future? MM - I would and I’m happy to do a Teams talk on it if you get enough interest. CC - Is there anything else you wish to tell us about the role of FLC/FLO? MM - Being a FLO/FLC is a secondary duty to your normal day job and as such it requires you to be organised and be able to work unsupervised for long periods of time. If you do not mange yourself properly, it will swallow you up. All that grief and pain must seep into people and if you aren’t affected by the plight of those who have had a loved one killed, then you probably shouldn’t be a FLO. It’s not a role for an automaton, you have to be compassionate and empathetic, or you will never be able to develop the relationship between you and the family. You have to be thick skinned because families often lash out at you verbally and usually unfairly. I FLO’d the family of one of my DC’s who had died of natural causes and despite the fact that I did everything I could, from sorting out his pension to arranging a force funeral with outback riders and the force choir, she was angry at me the whole way through because I was the one who told her, her Dad was dead. I’m fortunate that I was able just to take it and accept that grief is a crippling, cruel affliction and she probably didn’t mean it but I had many a sleepless night wondering what I had done and whether I should step back. I’m glad I didn’t, you don’t do this role for platitudes, but it is incredibly satisfying knowing that you may have helped even if it’s a miniscule amount.

Would you know what to do if you witnessed or were part of a fatal road accident? This interview with Harry Tangye will tell you about his experiences of dealing with such situations. ConsultingCops (CC) - Hi Harry, can you please tell me what rank you finished your career at and what force you worked for? PS Harry Tangye (HT) - Police Sergeant – Devon and Cornwall Police. CC - I understand you were in a position that meant you were often the first at scene for fatal road traffic accidents. Can you explain about that role please? HT - Yes, I would be informed of what could be a serious or fatal road traffic collision and would immediately make my way, sometimes, from some considerable distance away but the high-performance vehicles tended to make short shrift of it. Whilst en route, I’d try to get an accurate update on the casualties’ conditions and coordinate the right units towards the scene ensuring that Highways were aware to organise early diversions and, if confirmed fatal, ensure a family liaison officer had been informed and was attending. Getting these things organised en route whilst driving at 130mph could save an hour of a scene not having diversions set up causing huge inconvenience to motorists and more importantly ensure relatives were informed at the earliest opportunity. It’s important for me to consider those who attended the scene such as PCSO’s or local officers who may not have the supervisors to monitor them straight after, so I would review the log at the end of the shift to see which units had attended just to make sure they were okay or had some support, especially if it were a particularly nasty incident. Once at the scene, it was my role to firstly, keep calm, get a grip, co-ordinate it and to preserve life and any evidence before beginning the long investigation. CC - I’m sure our readers would like to know what it is like to turn up at the scene of a fatal road traffic accident and how you even know where to start with regards to dealing with the incident. Can you give us an insight please? HT - It can be a little daunting to be honest, especially if you know you are going to be the first one there, and that you have a least one dead and another badly injured, or even more taxing if you have more injured. You need to be able to stand back a bit and coordinate the scene, however, any immediate life-saving intervention must not be delayed either. I would try to get a picture of the incident in my mind whilst en route. If it’s quite an isolated location a local rural unit may have attended already and is able to give quite an accurate update. If the casualties are already on the way to the hospital, I would ensure another Traffic or ARV unit was attending the hospital to obtain the latest condition, collate their details and to ensure next of kin are informed but to also ensure any blood samples were taken for alcohol and drugs tests which can take some time. Considerable speeds would be achieved on motorways and dual carriageways often in the region of 130mph plus when safe to do so, and it could take some time at high speed across country ensuring each overtake was safe, whilst coordinating what was going on at the scene and ensuring the right people were attending. It can often be a bit confusing when you get to a scene, especially if the first one there. Someone, often in shock, usually runs up to you and begins telling you what they think has happened, and who is injured. It’s ideal if an officer has already assessed the scene as I can get an accurate summary from them. If other officers have got there first, I would politely remind them to obtain registrations and potentially phone numbers of members of public. Many witnesses assume there are lots of witnesses and they won’t be required, but others think as they didn’t actually see the collision, they won’t be required so they don’t call in, but they can often tell us if they saw the driving behaviour of the vehicle before the collision, for example a risky overtake, even if it were a mile prior. What’s just as important is if witnesses can tell us if they had been driving perfectly sensibly for the past few miles. Once they have left the scene, we have lost them forever if their details haven’t been taken and, in an area of tourism, they may miss any witness appeals on the local radio, so it’s incredibly important officers attending obtain these scant details before they leave. It's the simple things like coming up with a plan before I get there. Ensuring I know exactly where I’m going to put the car to protect the scene and myself. If I know there is a badly injured person and I am the first one there, I need to ensure I have the substantial first aid kit out of the car and with me, quickly assess who needs emergency treatment if they do and if all is under control, ensure other emergency services have easy access. Someone’s health and any danger on the scene, such as spilt fuel or people trapped takes priority. I have preserving evidence in my mind but if the fire engine needs to park on the spot I rather they didn’t to preserve a tyre mark, then so be it. They take priority. CC - What training did you receive to be entrusted with investigating Fatal Road Traffic Accidents? HT - Officers will join the traffic department, otherwise known as Roads Policing once they have some experience in general policing. The same goes for The Armed Response Unit (ARV) which is a dual-role with Traffic in some Forces. They will have to undergo Traffic law courses, which I personally found tough as there is a lot of number crunching involving weights and measures, HGV’s and complicated legislation which can send me to sleep if I’m honest, but some officers thrive on it! I was more into the scene management side. They will have to have passed their standard driving course, and their advanced driving courses, both 4 to 5 weeks a piece, then their pursuit and then the TPAC (Tactical pursuit and containment). The ARV officers will have to pass a 13-week firearms course on top of that. I refer to the whole thing as playing a game of snakes and ladders. One fail and you lose the lot. All the way back to the beginning but the chances are you won’t get another chance. It can be hugely stressful. CC - Can you explain the process of the investigation once everything has been dealt with at the scene? HT - After the initial scene management, with the Scenes of Crime, the Collision Investigator, vehicle examiner, family liaison officers and the scene has been cleared, as the lead investigating officer I would have a debrief with as many of those who attended to establish the order of events, what witnesses had been collated, and what those who had already spoken could provide. The family liaison officer and those officers who attended the hospital would say what they had found out on who the injured persons or deceased were, who their next of kin were, whether bloods were successfully taken, and at this point, the investigation should be providing a picture of what they call the initial hypothesis. Was the collision contributed to by just bad driving, or weather, the road surface or design, fatigue, distraction within the vehicle out outside, suicide attempt or even murder. Yes, we will investigate every avenue and take nothing for granted. Mobile phones will be downloaded for the specific time span to see if it was being used to receive a call, or to make one or whether it was being used for something else. The vehicle would be examined to ensure that poor mechanical work hadn’t caused it or even, whether it had been tampered with. CC - In your career how many fatal road accidents did you deal with? HT - I stopped counting after 150. CC - Is there any one particular accident that you have strong feelings about? HT - There were a couple. One involving a child of 6 years old. I had twins who were 6 years old. The family liaison officer had a child who was 6, and the officer who was first on scene and who administered CPR to what was very obviously a lost cause, had a niece who was 6 years old. He did all this whilst the boy’s parents and 11-year-old brother held hands looking on. You couldn’t make it up. I told the officer who was first on the scene carrying out CPR that I was not going to choose him as officer in the case, (OIC) as I could see it had deeply affected him. His reply was determined and left me with no choice, “Sarge, I am taking this one on as officer in the case, and you aren’t taking it from me.” I attended the post mortem of that little boy. The respect and gentle manner in which those mortuary staff handled his little body will stay with me forever along with the looks on the faces of the parents and his brother. The other was a double fatal early on a sunny morning outside Exeter. The 21-year-old female passenger had a fatal head injury whilst I was trying to save the life of the driver who was dying in front of me. Cars were driving by whilst I spoke to him and tried to comfort him, even though I knew there was very little chance he would survive. I was single crewed and first on the scene and used medical equipment to clear the blood from his airway whilst I waited for an ambulance but it was relentless. He died very soon after. CC - I understand you have written a book about your experiences during the police. Can you tell me about it and what it is called? HT - My father had me when he was 60 years old so I had the unusual situation where my friend’s parents were plumbers and builders and yet my dad had been a spy and a spitfire pilot. He wrote books in his retirement, one of which was his autobiography which was incredible to have as a record for me. I learned so much about him after he died when I was just 18 years old. I realised when I met up with my friends from the police, we would talk about those jobs we went to. Those funny ones, serious ones, sad ones, those where we were fortunate to make it, those which taught us something about people, so I decided to write a book like my father to highlight these accounts that I personally went through. I also talked about my child hood of making pipe bombs on the Cornish cliffs when I was 12, and my visits to casualty saying I’d fallen off my bike! Because of this, the first chapter is predictably named, ‘Breaching the Terrorism Act’. I was only writing it for my two children who are in their early 20’s as I am sure they have no idea of what I actually did in my life. Like most kids, they couldn’t be less interested but I thought they may read it one day or one day, their future children may do so. My mother encouraged me to give it to her frighteningly intelligent friends to read and they said I would be crazy not to publish it. I self-published ‘Firearms and Fatals’ (referencing ARV and Traffic in the title) and it became an amazon #1 best seller. I’ve since written a novel which I confess is mostly all true called ‘The Cornish Scoop’ and I am in the process of writing another. It helps me stay slightly sane whilst I grab a break from looking after my mother with dementia in Newquay, Cornwall. It’s a difficult but very fulfilling existence. CC - Is there anything else you would like to add about dealing with Fatal Road Accidents? HT - Why did I do it? I got some achievement by helping families find closure. That the police had cared and had found out what had happened and done all they could to do so. That is incredibly important. I didn’t mind getting a bit cold and wet now and then, I like the urgency and maybe a little danger, and of course I loved the fast cars and guns!

Continuing with the series about what police officers do when they leave the service we have an interview with an ex-colleague of mine form the Homicide Command; former Detective Constable Simon Hobson. Simon has been very busy since leaving the police and I believe his work around perpetrators of domestic violence will be a learning experience for the reader. ConsultingCops (CC) - Hi Simon can you tell us about when and where you served with the police please? What rank and what role did you perform? Simon Hobson (SH) - I joined the Metropolitan Police Service (MPS) as a fresh faced 19-year-old boy from Tyneside in 1990 and after 5 months at the Police College Hendon, was shipped out to East London where I spent my time in uniform duties. After 4 years on Relief I was seconded to CID firstly as a PC on Divisional Burglary and Robbery Squads then as a Trainee Investigator before undertaking the Accredited Investigator Scheme. In 1998 I qualified as a Detective Constable with an initial posting in the Borough of Barking and Dagenham. What followed was a thoroughly enjoyable and varied career in Criminal Investigation with time spent in Interfamilial Child Death Investigation, Homicide and Road Death Investigation. I performed roles including Advanced Exhibit Officer, Family Liaison Officer and as an ABE specialist interviewer. After 26 years I retired from the Met and returned back home to Tyneside. CC - What did you think you would do when you decided to leave the police? SH - My initial intention was to take up the offer of a role within the Port of Tyne Authority, however, I was approached by a local charity who were seeking to start a Project working with Perpetrators of Domestic Abuse. It was the beginning of a new chapter for me. CC - What jobs have you had since leaving the police and what are you doing now? SH - I initially went to work for the local Charity I have mentioned and facilitated group work programmes for men who accepted they had been abusive within their intimate relationships and wanted to change these behaviours. I later additionally worked for the international charity Barnardo's in a similar role aimed specifically at high risk, high harm repeat perpetrators. As I gained more experience within the sector I undertook other projects such as delivering group work programmes for children who had been negatively affected by domestic abuse within their families. I was invited by Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service (CAFCASS) to deliver the Separated Parenting Information Programme to attempt to resolve conflict between parents within Private Family Law Proceedings and I later extended my role within Barnardo's delivering the national ‘Drive’ pilot scheme aimed at working with men highlighted by Northumbria Police in the Multi Agency Tasking and Coordination (MATAC) process as those at highest risk of causing serious harm to women and children with their behaviour. Parallel to the behaviour change work I trained as a Will Writer and Estate Planning and qualified as a member of the Will Writers Society allowing me to practice as a Will Writer, provider of Lasting Powers of Attorney and provider of Property protection within Trust Law. I now run an Estate Planning business as an Independent Contractor working in tandem with a National Law Firm and in April of 2022 was recruited to design and manage The Right Turn Project being Sunderland’s first ever Domestic Abuse Perpetrator Bespoke one to one Service. CC - They are very different jobs and very different to what you did in the police. Why did you choose these jobs? SH - Precisely for the reason of trying something different. I loved every moment of my time in the Metropolitan Police and working towards ensuring that criminals were prosecuted and subsequently punished. I cannot remember concerning myself too much with thoughts of rehabilitation for offenders and the benefit of trying to effect behaviour change by offenders of domestic abuse. At the heart of what I do now is a belief in the ability of an individual to be educated and to learn techniques which allow them to better deal with adverse emotions without using harmful behaviours. CC - How much of your police experience has helped you with these jobs? SH - The ability to provide the best possible service to the survivors of the abuse is at the heart of behaviour change work. The perpetrator in the room isn’t the primary client and focus should always remain on the reasons why the work is being undertaken, namely to improve the safety of women and children. My background in Family Liaison and the numerous ABE interviews that I conducted with children and vulnerable people have all stood me in good stead within my new field of work. And as for the Will Writing and Estate Planning? Long, laborious drafting of reports and legal papers with an eye on hard factual contact and fine detail that holds up to scrutiny? Any Detective past or present will feel my pain! CC - What training did you have to complete for the future estate planning position? SH – Initially, I attended in person at a 2-week training course as an introduction to general Estate Planning including Will Writing, preparation of Powers of Attorney, UK Trust Law and much more. I shadowed experienced, qualified Will Providers whilst further studying and subsequently being accepted as a member of the Society of Will Writers. In my first 2 years of practice all of my work in the area of Trust Law was QA’d by fully qualified Trust Lawyers with their approval and ‘sign off’ being required. It’s been quite the journey to establish myself and gain the confidence of an ever-expanding client base. CC - I am sure our readers will be very interested to know more about the Domestic Abuse Perpetrator Programmes. What else can you tell us about it and does it work? SH - A number of Interventions are available for those who use harmful behaviours in an intimate relationship. After a thorough and rigorous 1-2-1 assessment process where matters are addressed such as motivation to change, knowledge and understanding of what constitutes abuse and the personal needs of the individual in relation to mental health matters, substance abuse issues, debt and housing problems etc… Then a decision is taken as to what substantive work will best suit that individual. Across the two employers that I work for there is then access to a 10-week educational programme, bespoke content of one to one Programmes of around 12-weeks in length and a 26-week intensive group work programme where up to 10 men at a time on each group will work to address their abusive behaviour. Support is offered independently to every current or significant ex-partner of every perpetrator who works with us and their choices regarding appropriate interventions post assessment are all informed by in depth risk assessments and safeguarding considerations. A Multi-Agency approach is promoted with input from Children’s Services, Police, Probation, Housing and many more interested stakeholders. CC - How does the charity fund your position? Does it make you concerned that it could be halted due to lack of funds? SH - My first contract back in 2015 was for only 3 months! As you can imagine coming from an environment of complete job security this was a major shock to the system. It’s the nature of the Charitable Sector that everything is reliant on funding and I soon found that every year the period January-March was an uncertain time as funding decisions were often left until the last days of March and therefore job security was never confirmed until the last moment. In April 2022 I secured a 5-year contract to launch the new Perpetrator Service in Sunderland. Almost unheard of within the Sector and finally time for me to take a breath! CC - Do you miss being a police officer? If yes, what do you miss? SH - This is something I thought that I would struggle with when I left the Police. For 26 years it had been such a huge part of my life. But I can honestly say that I don’t miss the actual job. I loved the vast majority of my time in the Met, I am very grateful for all that I learned and experienced and for the opportunity to have played my part. I know that it will sound like a cliché but what I do miss is the spirit, camaraderie and humour of my friends alongside whom I was so proud to serve. CC - Any other comments you would like to make? SH - I made friends for life in the Met. One of whom is the esteemed CEO of this company. I was just a boy when I joined the Police. I left as a man looking for a second act both professionally and personally. I’ve found both.